"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?"
Matthew 7:7 KJV
Whew!!! This is from a Facebook post discussion regarding the now infamous request by globetrotting clergyman Creflo Dollar for funding to purchase a 65 million dollar Gulfstream G650 jet.
FW Famous - I never thought much of him.
KH Noel - His last name is Dollar...
LB Sanka - False prophet... That's it in a nutshell... SMH.
Apanage21 - Please - I don't think much of any of them [clergy]. The surprising thing is that billions of people over the course of centuries continue to fall for this nonsense. It is not Mr. Dollar's fault - if it was not him, it would be someone else. Where there are suckers, there will always be someone to accommodate and profit from "suckerhood."
So, the question is not whether Mr. Dollar will continue to collect - the question is: "When will the suckers wake up?" "False prophet?" Every accuser that makes that determination towards "Pastor A," seems to have a different, contradictory, and individual yardstick than the other accuser that is pointing at "Pastor B" across the street, along with the other accuser pointing at "Pastor C" on the next block for the same reason - and so on - and so on. Then you have all three individual supporters of "Pastors A, B, and C" - serial cross-pointing at each other's pastors, making the same accusations. What are we looking at here?
This universally habituated practice (at least on the surface), seems to render the "false" accusation meaningless, but at the same time - the practice itself can be strategically provocative. Because if you ask any believer about qualifiers, you will find that there is no universally agreed upon "false" standard: "What do YOU mean by false - and why is YOUR assessment the correct one?" I haven't heard a good, useable or even consistent answer yet. The determination of "falseness" ultimately (as far as I can see this) is both denominationally driven - an organized and sustained inter-sectarian animus to potentially increase market share for the accusing denomination(s) and/or pastor(s), and then, from the individual believer's standpoint, emotionally subjective - an empty, auto-reinforcing self-assurance that one is in "the right church."
There is nowhere to go with that.
Accusations of "false" are also strategically and politically selective. Mr. Dollar is an absolute piker when it comes to the all-time champion of pious pimpery - the Catholic Church. Does Dollar have any facility that can compare with the baroque super-opulence of the Vatican?
The "Vatican Bank?" A bank dude? In the name of Jesus? OK... Didn't he [Jesus] turn over some (money changing) tables in a temple? Solid gold crosses (for real) for the Pope to wear? That's Pimpin'! Dude got bulletproof "Popemobiles" donated by several major automobile manufacturers? And nobody asks why the Pope would need a bulletproof "anything." Vatican buy a plane? The Pope? Buy? Please. That's for SIMP's... Alitalia Airlines will just hand over a jumbo commercial jet (free) for his private use whenever he wants to fly... THAT'S pimpin' - OK? A whole church organization - being able to SCREW children, get away with it, and still be able to get hundreds of millions of suckers to voluntarily hand over billions of dollars - even after that nasty revelation? I don't see that many substantive accusations of "falsity" pointed here - but there should be.
And to still - right now, these people, being able to hypocritically moralize you and me? Seriously? I mean really - here you have, an internationally respected, non-accountable, no tax-paying, anti-moral, pedophile protection organization - that is brazenly allowed to diplomatically influence governments as well? To tell YOU whom you can sleep with - and how - as well? Where are the "falseness" accusations here? Really? This is pure clerical criminality, abetted by piously driven political expediency. We have all that - remember now, we are talking about clergymen screwing children - with no judicial or regulatory shut-down of Catholic operations?
You tell me that ain't PIMPIN'...
OK... Dollar has some real catching-up to do.
LQ Generous - This negro, and all the rest of these false prophets got a lot of people fooled... They want to live a lavish lifestyle, while their so-called congregation suffers. He better catch a 99 dollar Southwestern flight... Tomfoolery at its finest... Trust and believe he will get that jet, because his congregation has been brainwashed.
RL Equal - My pastor said even if he could afford a private jet, he would never purchase one. Why? He says you can't reach any lost souls on your own plane. Fly commercial and minister to the folks.
(I was wondering if that was the same obnoxious preacher that was attempting to proselytize in my direction the last time I was catching a flight to Vegas. Oh well...)
Apanage21 - OK... They have a lot of people fooled. But - conversely, what would they teach in honesty? That putting a knife to your child's throat is a good loyalty test (Genesis 22:2-8)? That a woman should marry her rapist (Deuteronomy 22:28-29)? That it is cool to beat a slave to within an inch of his life (Exodus 21:20-21)? Or, should they double-down on that whole tithing, giving - donation - "sowing a seed" part (citing Leviticus 27:30, Numbers 18:26, Deuteronomy 14:24, 2Chronicles 31:5 - along with, 1Corinthians 16:2, James 1:5 - and, 2Corinthians 9:7)? They [prosperity preachers] do that "sow a seed for a harvest" stuff pretty well (especially on TV), and you cannot accurately say that the "donation and effect" concept as interpreted and preached, cannot be biblically sourced and utilized towards certain ends.
After all - all of these supposedly "Dollerian" preachings are biblical in a broad sense (if you check your Bible). And the "all knowing, all seeing" (that includes the future) creator of the universe, as described therein, did not expend any biblical prohibitions on members of the priesthood (or clergy) owning private jets. I did a thorough check of the Bible regarding this - I was totally surprised, considering the indignation out there - it ain't in there. I think I will mail my check tomorrow...
I don't want to miss my blessing.
Sir - when you look at your Bible, God is quite pointed, quite specific about the things or actions he DOES prohibit like: Not working your SLAVES on the Sabbath (Exodus 20:8-11)... Right? Or - not wearing clothes that are made of fabric that combine two or more types of fiber - like silk and wool, or cotton and polyester (Leviticus 19:19)... Right? Or - the crystal clear, exquisitely explicit no-nos he gave folks regarding the consumption of the pork-swine-pig (Leviticus 11:7-8 and Deuteronomy 14:8)... Right? And again Sir - any prohibitions on jet ownership - and then considering the widespread indignation.
It just ain't in there - nothing...
I mean - it didn't sound like God was kidding around, or leaving room for anyone within his infinite creation to make any arrogantly unauthorized allowances, or expend any new interpretive constructs behind HIS word when HE said: "Those who consecrate and purify themselves to go into the gardens, following one who is among those who eat the flesh of pigs, rats and other unclean things - 'they will meet their end together, with the one they follow', declares the LORD (Isaiah 66:16-17)." See my point? Why do Christians ignore clear prohibitions that are there [in the Bible] - while making-up prohibitions that are not there [in the Bible] - at the same time, claiming divine attribution to those made-up prohibitions that don't exist? Only and just because some well-known Christian personality may be out there doing or saying things that might place some degree of unfavorable light on Christian PR...
So - let us be fair... If a good Christian can go to a restaurant, after Sunday services - even though the Bibically specified "Sabbath" would actually be on that Saturday (see Exodus 20:11, Exodus 31:16-17, and Deuteronomy 5:12-15, etc.) - and the Christian(?) waiters and cooks employed at that restaurant should not be working on that day - that's what it says... Right? Good Christian - wearing a silk and wool suit, on top of a cotton and polyester shirt... And then - placing an order of pork chops with his Sunday Brunch meal... And Christian, don't forget to say grace over those pork chops please.
So - if the average knowing Christian can openly blow-off explicitly specified Biblical prohibitions himself - with no critical static coming from other Christians - why can't Mr. Creflo DOLLAR get his money, and acquire his beautiful Gulfstream luxury jet in peace?
And I don't want to hear that - "we are now under grace," or "covered in the blood," or that "we are under another dispensation" type nonsense. Don't contradict your own book. Your Bible says: "Jesus came to fulfill the Law - not abolish it (Matthew 5:17)." Meaning, in dictionary type standard English - NO rescinding of Old Testament prohibitions. He also didn't come to abolish clerical ownership of private jets. He didn't. And no one - off the tops of their righteously interpreting heads can rightly say that he did. OK?
There are no direct, nor indirect latter-day qualifications added by the so-called LORD, nor are there any specifically repealing divine-source amendments that would alter, attenuate, or nullify those particular prohibitions found anywhere in the Bible.
Not one... But Christians eat PORK anyway.
So why can't Creflo have his jet? I mean - if we are so "under grace" - as you Christians say - and if this "grace" graciously allows YOU to have your pork chops (despite clear, unrepealed Biblical prohibitions) - in the same logical vein, "grace" should allow Mr. Dollar to have his jet (which has no Biblical prohibitions at all).
God - apparently seems to have no problem with it...
FW Famous - @Apanage21... Quoting you: "And the 'all knowing, all seeing' creator of the universe, as described therein did not expend any biblical prohibitions on members of the priesthood (or clergy) owning private jets." Yes, He did. As a follower of Christ, it is plain that Jesus warns these false shepherds against doing what Creflo Dollar is doing. Some folks call Jesus' teachings "pie in the sky." You take a big gamble in placing the material over the spiritual. I actually feel sorry for Creflo Dollar. He doesn't have a clue.
Apanage21 - @FW Famous... "As a follower of Christ," it would seem that you should be able to recognize polemics, irony, and satire when you see it. That was not a serious statement. If you read it again, you will see that I am actually making fun of Mr. Dollar's game-playing. I assumed the majority of people on this post were sophisticated enough to recognize nuanced humor. I apologize, if I phrased myself in such a way as to engender misunderstanding.
But - the other thing... You say: "He doesn't have a clue." Oh, on the contrary - I think we are the ones that "don't have a clue." After all, HE IS the one that is about to receive 65 million bucks for a luxurious sky-ride. While the self-described folks like yourself, that are supposedly "full of clues" ARE NOT (as far as I know). Would it be reasonable to assume that ALL the folks that "have a clue" can decisively determine whom among us "has a clue," and who doesn't? Is that assumption correct? And that determining group includes YOU... Is that correct?
What usable value this ability carries with it, I don't know.
Soooo - how does this work? OK... The "no-clue" folks acquire top of the line Gulfstream jets, with a bed, shower, wet bar, desk, ample leather seating, gourmet food, beautiful flight attendants, private boarding area, etc. At the same time - the "clued-up" folks are "blessed" to wait in TSA lines, and ride coach, so as to sit in the middle seat between a babbling hypochondriac with bowel problems on the one side, and an overweight nose-picker that forgot to apply deodorant, of all days, on the other. And the plane is 107% full. For refreshment - a snarky flight attendant throws a bag of peanuts at you for five dollars. Champagne? For you?
Coach? Forget it...
And... "HE doesn't have a clue..?"
I am trying to process that.
FW Famous - @Apanage21... On the contrary of contraries. You say those who are giving him the money "ARE NOT full of clues." Of course, I agree. They are not [full of clues] because they know not the Word. It warns of false shepherds: "Whoa be to the shepherds of Israel that do feed themselves (Ezekiel 34:1-10)." "Yeah, they are greedy dogs which can never have enough, and they are shepherds that cannot understand. They all look to their own way, every one for his gain, from his quarter (Isaiah 56:1-2)."
And no, they do not have a clue. Here, pastors should be teaching End Times prophecy, and instead people like Dollar are preaching "prosperity" theology. Dollar wants a new plane because his is aging, and because he had an incident of engine failure. He can also have engine failure on the new plane. No - prosperity theology is the last thing people should be teaching in these End Times.
We have global warming, something right-wing Christians do not want to include in End Times theology because it interrupts capitalism and their own prosperity theology. Yet - we have snow in the South, especially in Texas on a scale never before seen in those regions like that. Sinkholes open up in unexpected places. We see asteroids flying past, and some of the smaller ones making visits. Fact: NASA has a goal of identifying 90% of asteroids at least 460 feet large by 2020, and yet only 10% have been identified so far.
We are due for an asteroid hitting a populated area and, there's nothing we can do about it. Yes, the Earth is large. But if a person can beat the odds and win the Lotto, then an asteroid can beat the odds and hit a populated area. It's only a matter of time. Putin tests our air defenses. We have a congress that wants to supply weapons to Ukraine, which is an understandably bad move. We are closer to World War III than you think. Mankind's going crazy and making laws that allow concealed weapons. White policemen still think unarmed black men are good target practice. Mankind is still giving us cancer causing foods for a profit. We are still due for a technology damaging solar storm. That Apanage21, is how it works. These pastors see the world coming apart and (because their hearts are into their own selfishness and greed), DON'T HAVE A CLUE of what's going on and sadly, neither does their flocks.
RL Equal - Truth!^^^^^^^^^^^^
LQ Generous - I wish I could like that statement 10 times FW Famous... So true. Every time I look at this post... It pisses me off... People like this who prey on the elderly, the sick, and stupid people... I don't trust none of them to be honest. Unfortunately, a lot of people don't see it... That's why most of these pastors have lost a lot of credibility with me.
RR Overton - He should be building up the community and give back, since he's on top.
Apanage21 - @FW Famous... OK, first Sir - let us separate out the things that have nothing to do with this discussion:
1. "Sinkholes" - Oh... OK - so, you know about sinkholes... OK. Well, as you supposedly know, these are naturally occurring where the rock below the surface is limestone or other carbonate rock, where it can easily be dissolved by fresh groundwater. Sinkholes will happen anywhere, anytime those ground factors are present. And as you should know, Sir - this is natural, everyday phenomena that has been going on for billions of years.
Has nothing to do with "End Times."
2. "Asteroids?" - OK. So experts are behind on identifying them. Scientists have a full plate these days. Asteroids hit all planets. Why would we be the exception for this not happening? But if more of us would pool our intellectual resources to develop techniques that will stop an asteroid from possibly hitting us - I think that would be a much more productive use of our collective processing power than wasting it on whether some charlatan should be preaching "End Times" rather than "Prosperity" theology.
3. "Global Warming Theory being included in End Times Theology?" - OH MAN, I would love to attend that sermon. I would be more than curious to watch some pulpit pounder convincingly "hook these two up." Soooo - how do you preach sophisticated 21st century scientific theory combined with a 2000 year-old "End Times" theology that is sourced from a book that describes the earth as flat? And I am citing these: Deuteronomy 13:7, 28:49, 28:64, 33:17, and Job 2:8, 19:14, 22:27, 33:13, 38:13, 48:10, 59:13, 61:2, 65:5, and 72:8 - there are more verses on that subject that could be cited, but you get the picture. A real science and religion mash-up - let's do this!
And in the portents that signal the second coming in Revelation 6:13 - where the stars fall from the sky and land on earth (we also read this in Mark 13:25)... To consciously write that in sincerity means - that writer does not know what stars actually are. Stars are rather large objects (some much larger and hotter than our Sun - our Sun is a star), and if just one were to speedily come our way - well... And let us not forget that the alleged original cause for the upcoming "End Times" coda, came from the unfortunate intersecting of a magic tree, a talking snake, and a naked white woman (I am going by the pictures).
And, we are to somehow combine this pitifully retrograde 2000 year-old "theology" with 21st century, peer-reviewed, global warming science...
4. "Concealed Weapons?" - Come on - why should anyone have a problem with that? I believe in equality, and if the criminals can carry concealed weapons, I should have them also. If Trayvon Martin had a concealed weapon like George Zimmerman did - I think that story might have turned out a little different.
5. "Putin tests our air defenses?" - Ah, yeah. So does Israel (surprise, surprise), and China, and Iran, and North Korea, and a whole lot of other entities that know better not to step over a certain line.
6. "White policemen still think unarmed black men are good target practice?" - Yes that's true - and that is a problem to be sure. Notice I said: "A Problem." But - THE problem is that: "Black men still think unarmed black men are good target practice." There is not one place in the City of Chicago that I am reluctant to step into because of the presence of a critical mass of policemen (and yes, I have had my share of driving and/or walking while black incidents, like many of us black folks have) - but I have taken considered pause before going into certain areas of this city because of the presence of a critical mass of armed, and possibly homicidal, young black men.
7. "Weapons to Ukraine" - "World War III" - "Solar Storms" - "Cancer Causing Foods" - "Snow in Texas" - "NASA facts," this is all "filler" conversation. Let us stay on subject, and keep it moving.
NOW Sir... On with the subject: Mr. Dollar's "theology" (a racket IMO), is no better or worse than what is being preached at the other 31,626 different denominations and sects of Christianity that can be found in America alone. And if you Sir, decide to organize, doctrinize, and then open a facility to propagate your particular theological viewpoint, you could be denomination No. 31,627!!!
Let us not be unclear about what we are dealing with here: Mr. Dollar is an adept and successful religious businessman. And he is definitely not in business for "salvation" purposes (yours or his). He is in the "faith" (or sucker) business - which can be exceptionally lucrative. So what do you actually expect from him - or any clergyman for that matter?
If you ask me - anyone [any sucker] that is looking for a SHEPHERD, and who wants to self-identify as a SHEEP(?!?), who wants to be part of somebody's FLOCK, deserves to be taken (even for 65 million dollars). The shepherd's job is to prepare the SHEEP for fleecing and slaughter (through tending, feeding, and overseeing the flock - correct?) - that's his job - Right? And herded sheep themselves are considered standouts in dumbness, just within the animal kingdom itself. So - if that's the case - how and why would any human that self-identifies as a SHEEP, and then voluntarily - freely, making himself part of a FLOCK, reasonably be expected - to have the proactive presence of mind to pause, or to think, or to ask any questions?
"Buy this plane suckers!!! - OBEY!!!"
Whoever analogized this sheep/shepherd thing - either did not really think this concept through... OR - he just cynically understood that the average believer is so intellectually vacuous and operationally stupid, that the insulting implication of the sheep/shepherd analogy would go right over their heads. And with most believers - it apparently has.
To me - Christianity is a part of the great White Supremacy System, and I won't go along with it (that is another discussion). Black clergy serve as "proxies" for that system - that's why none of them can be trusted... The only thing that I can say positive about "prosperity" preachers - is that they are the most open about what they are doing, and they do not care that their lies are the most transparent to see through: "Give ME your money, and YOU will prosper!" OK... I thought I saw Bill Gates and Donald Trump sitting in the front pews at Creflo's place? Did I see that? I have to check that tape again...
While I was checking, I ran across a video, in which Bishop T.D. Jakes said: "Jesus is the product." OK... They "market" PRODUCTS - don't they?
That's from HIS mouth (it's on YouTube).
The laws of this country allow hustlers like Mr. Dollar to work their game. Pastors need "believers," not "thinkers." The adept can market ANYTHING to a "believer," OK - like 300 dollar sneakers, pet rocks, or some rationale that explains how a 65 million dollar (!!!) luxury jet is NEEDED by a pastor to spread "The Gospel." And those grown folks that do give - do so voluntarily. Black people in America alone hand over cash at the rate of $300 million a week to churches. That is 15.6 billion dollars a year. Sir - have you seen any improvement in our communities that is commensurate with a 15.6 billion dollar figure?
"Hustling While Christian" is legal dude, and a 65 million dollar plane is exactly in line with what Mr. Dollar has been doing and saying for years (Creflo has what, 30,000 official sucker-members?). So what's the problem? He will get the plane - watch. What I think is happening with all of the criticism - is that all of this (to some) is bringing bad PR on Christianity in general, and other folks [preachers] don't want THEIR stuff being looked at. So, all of the criticism directed at Mr. Dollar's rich get-over is actually diversional nonsense. That's what I think. Hustlers HUSTLE... OK? You may not be able to stop the hustler - but you can definitely wake-up out of the faith-game and stop yourself from being hustled by the pastor-pimps of this world.
So - I must say, THAT is how it works.